Chill DG Session / How to Vibe / Flipping Frames
On an early afternoon in early October I finally had some time free after a 3 week vacation. I was rusty, but it didn’t matter: the early afternoon is the “Manhattan Miracle Hours”, where the corporate grind keeps all the boss-babe types, the kind who look at you in disgust for daring to utter a word in their direction, busy clacking away at their midtown office keyboards.
Miracle Hours are a privileged time when you don’t need to fight to get every girl to stop. D was also around as well to drop me his wisdom and open girls in his market (IE, tainted-heads).
I see the first girl of the day appear walking out of the Delaney-Essex stop:
Indian Hostess
What’s up - I like your fit.
“Thanks”
We’re both a fan of black and white I see. Color blind people love us.
“Haha sure, I can’t stop; I gotta go to work though.”
She starts walking away. As a beginner, you get emotionally reactive to this action - a sense of surprise / fear of rejection. Your emotional state triggers a tonal shift that woman read into, which is more important than the words themselves. Fear of rejection becomes self-fulfilling in that regard.
But after hundreds of approaches, I’m far less emotionally phased by this. And it shows, as I confidently state without a change in tone:
What do you do for work at this hour?
She pauses. A conversation in motion tends to stay in motion.
“I work at a restaurant”
Ah sick my first job was a waiter. That shit was fun
She turns back to me: “No, I’m a hostess”
I pause. I don’t know where to take this- the word “hostess” isn’t triggering anything in my mind. I just spit out the next logical thing:
“Oh, where at?”
Not ideal. A logical question is not the emotional punch that I want to create.
<name>
“Never been there. Where’s it at?”
Strike two. The conversation’s going down a logical information exchange path. I’m just quizzing her at this point. She gives the location then reiterates her need to go. I don’t fight - I feel defeated.
I head back to D and relay the conversation, asking:
What am I missing? How do I make it fun before she has to leave? How do I make it emotional? How do I display intent?
D explains:
“Anything she says, make it about you and her. She’s a hostess? ‘So you’re gonna get me the VIP table when I visit you right?’”
Ah, makes sense. And she has to head to work. What do I say there?
“She’s making the fact that she has to go to work a problem for you, right? Because you want to continue the conversation. So flip it - reframe it as a problem for her: ‘Money’s nice, but you’re walking away from something priceless.’”
Yeah, I see that’s much more fun. But say she replies ‘I don’t want to lose my job’
“Keep challenging her: ‘Your boss isn’t going to write you up for being 5 minutes late’ You’re the man. You make the decisions for her. You declare what’s a problem and what’s not.”
For the next girl I resolved to steer the conversation to be about me and her.
Denim Asian Soho
We continue to catch up as we walk west along Delancey before making it to SoHo. A slow walking Asian girl in a denim jacket passes us.
“An Asian in jeans”, D sarcastically proclaims, “show me your game, king”. I double back and step in front of her:
What’s up? I just passed you and wanted to introduce myself before you disappeared from my life forever.
“Hi”
I see we’re both a fan of denim.
“Oh, yeah I guess we’re both wearing jeans”
But you’re a denim superfan with that jacket of yours
“Yeah haha I guess”
You Canadian?
“No?”
You’d fit right in there. They wear the same shit. Double denim
“Oh really I don’t know about that”
Yeah. She‘s holding a shopping bag. I point: Shopping day?
“Yeah”
I had resolved to make it about us, and remembered an old line to use on girls carrying shopping bag (For any type of shopping bag, joke that she got you something): What’d you get me? A matching denim jacket?
We vibe a bit more but I fail to come up with other we-frame lines. The conversation I try to keep light, but it starts to drift into the “information-exchange” realm and the emotional spark slowly fades. She’s returning home, but with the vibe slowly dying, my confidence in the interaction diminishes too much to pitch an insta date.
Well, I gotta go, but I fuck with your vibe. How about I grab your number and we meet up later for coffee?
“Oh, uhh I’m okay thanks”
Ah… I didn’t have the highest confidence in the interaction, but the vibe was good in the beginning so I was surprised I couldn’t even get a number out of it. I resolve to find out why:
Well what could I have done better next time?
“Oh well it’s just that I have a boyfriend”
I feign shock and disgust: Wow, and you waited this long to tell me?
She laughs and looks exasperated, stepping back: “Well I didn’t really know..”
Guys stop you just to chat?
“I mean…”
I smile: Alright so I gotta make my intentions known next time. Whatever get out of here
She smiles and leaves
I go back to D, congratulating me on pushing back on her boyfriend objection. Even though I felt it was still my fault for not establishing the romantic frame.
SoHo is dead, so we decide to take the subway up to Union.
Train Battle
The subway is crowded crowded. D and I are squished in. Sitting next to us is a vibrant, dripped-out Indian girl. Giant headphones cover her ears as she looks down with a resting bitch face. One look and I can tell- this girl eats men alive. D taps me and gestures to her.
Dude… I whisper to myself
This was supposed to be a chill day. I wasn’t ready to go to battle. But if I wasn’t going to, D was. He taps her shoulder and gestures for her to remove her headphones. She looks up:
“Hey, I dig the jacket” D states
She gives D an aggravated smile, rolls her eyes, and looks back down, about to put her headphones back in.
D jerks his head to the side: “You’re just going to take my compliment and run? Where are your manners girl?”
She jerks her head back up and sneers: “Do you want a thank you card?”
Holy crap. Her attitude is as bad as I thought. A true-blooded tainted-head. And on a crowded train, I can feel the tension even more.
D, unfazed, leans in and squares up his face to hers. With a cheeky grin, he goes: “I’ll settle for a real smile. Or is that too difficult for you sister?”
She gives D the bedroom eyes and bites her bottom lip. I see her squeeze her thighs together tightly. My jaw drops. What a flip. Instant sexual attraction.
She smirks a bit. “Happy?”
D leans back and lets out a roarous laughter: “There you go, see, you how to behave”
Her mouth drops now: “You’re something else”
D and the girl vibe for a short bit about her attitude and style. He then introduces me: “This is my friend. What do you think of his fit?”
She looks me up and down: “All Saints?”, she smirks, “That’s pretty basic don’t you think?”
Fuck, she went after me. I nervously laugh and look at D, hoping he backs me up. He doesn’t respond. I try to play it cool: Fuck, well if that’s what you think…
D joins in to bash me: “Damn, she got you white boy!” He looks at the girl again “He’s from the suburbs so he’s soft. Go easy on him.”
D continues to vibe about the culture of women in this city, bringing me into the conversation here and there. Two more times, the girl shit-tests me and I have no response. We skip the stop at Union to continue the interaction before saying our goodbyes and getting off at Herald.
D explains to me that he knows this archetype well. “Tainted girls like her are the most difficult to game for beginners, but they’re also the fastest to close”
I could see that- she was wet, gripping her thighs together in the first seconds of the interaction. I ask for advice:
How do I pass her shit test to me?
“What do you mean?”
She said All Saints was basic.
“Tell her: ‘Sorry I don’t take fashion advice from someone who stole her fit from clown school’”
Damn, that was good. We walk out into KTown and I spot a girl.
White Girl
I spot a tall white girl in yoga pants and a hoodie. Her head is down, scrolling through her phone. D nudges me.
Hey, I like your style. You're very casual.
"Thanks."
I take it that means you're running errands.
"Yes, I'm going shopping."
What for?
"Uhh, some skincare stuff."
Ah, you bought into the Korean skincare hype.
"Yeah, haha I guess."
Oh nice, well my Korean friend is into that shit, and he looks really young. So maybe I should try to get into it like you.
I felt the vibe start to die this line.
"I mean, I think you look young"
Thanks.
I struggle to figure out where to go from here.
So you live around here, or did you come all this way just to come to KTown?
"Oh no, I live nearby."
I fall back into question-and-answer mode as the vibe fades and she ejects.
I go back to D: Yeah I kind of just lost the vibe. I repeat the conversation to him. How do I maintain the vibe? She wasn't giving me much and I didn't know where to go.
D explains: “You’re missing the we frame again. Why did you relate her skincare to J? Make it about you and her: ‘Prepping that face for all the cute guys you’ll bump into? I’m flattered’. She said she lives nearby? ‘Oh, so how often do you wander around here waiting for guys like me to approach you?’”
Great lines and great concept, I think to myself, but in practice coming up with those lines is easier said than done.
Other Girls
We walk towards Herald and I make eye contact with a girl. I loop back and open in front of her:
Hey, I think we had a moment back there…
“What?”
We had a moment back there
She looks at me and pauses before looking away: “Sorry, I’m busy”
I try to fight: Everyone’s busy, it’s New York.
She apologizes again and scurries off.
I go back to D and ask what I could have done better. He said to make it more fun and emotional.
How?
D feigns disappointment and surprise: “Wait, I was wrong!?”
It was really the emotions behind the words that I was missing.
We continue on towards Bryant Park. There’s a girl with an all-black jumpsuit. Something about her vibe was off. I inquire about the outfit, and she says it is for her work. I ask what she does, but she dodges. I assume she was a sex worker or something and leave. Plus I was getting a weird vibe.
Right after, a small Asian girl wearing Supreme and other streetwear brands passes us. I open and vibe for a little bit. Then suddenly, an old woman comes between us wheeling a suitcase. I get distracted, which kills the vibe and the girl ejects.
D explains: don’t be afraid to call out the situation: “Damn, this is my first time getting cockblocked by a grandma”
Session Debrief
The day ends in Bryant Park. I have a discussion with D on generally how to handle objections / bad frames / how to vibe:
Anything that’s an issue for you: flip it to be an issue for her
I have to get to class → Straight A’s don’t impress me girl
Anything she’s doing: make it about about you two in a romantic situation.
I’m an airplane stewardess → Oh, so your coworkers can serve us extra drinks on our honeymoon
As I’m writing this, it’s been 3 months since this session, so my skills / understanding of frame has solidified and advanced well beyond what I got out of this session.
Bear with me, as this will be a highly technical explanation, but I now see frames as the key to everything in game. Here’s what I have come to understand:
Frames, Concepts, and Perceptions
I now see a “frame” as this:
Frame: An association between concepts
For example, we associate the concept of a “sky” with the concept of the color “blue”. A “frame” is the idea that those two concepts are associated with each other.
In language, frames are expressed in the form of a declarative statements:
Linguistic statement: The sky is blue.
Frame: The concept of “sky” and the concept of “the color blue” are associated with each other.
Frames are useful mental structures because our perception of a concept is defined by the frames that contain that concept. In a linguistic sense: words are defined using other words.
All of our frames that contain the concept of “sky” contribute to our perception of what a “sky” is:
Relationships between Frames, Conversational Threading, and Vibing
We can define the strength of relationships between frames:
Related Frames: “The sky is blue” and “The ocean is blue”
These frames are related because they both contain the concept “blue”, both contributing to the perception of the color “blue”.Somewhat-Related Frames: “The sky is blue” and “Grass is green”
These frames are semi-related because both “blue” and “green” are colors. So we can relate them with a sequence of related frames: “The sky is blue” → “Blue is a color” → “Green is a color” → “Grass is green”Highly Unrelated Frames: “The sky is blue” and “A bed is soft”
These frames are highly unrelated because you need a lot of related frames to relate them together: “The sky is blue” → “The earth has a sky” → “The earth has homes” → “Beds are in homes” → “A bed is soft”
Essentially, the strength of the relationship between two frames is defined by the degrees of separation using related frames.
I know this idea of seems too technical to be useful, but in the idea of “Related Frames” was the answer to one of the very beginner game questions I had: “How do I keep a conversation going?”. That’s because a conversation thread is just a sequence of Related Frames:
I like your hair
↕ These are Related Frames because they both contain the concept of “hair”
Your hair is the same color as Red Hot Tamales
↕ Both contain the concept of “Red Hot Tamales”
I like Red Hot Tamales because they are sweet and spicy
↕ Both contain the concepts of “sweet” and “spicy”
My ex was sweet but she was also kind of a spicy b*tch sometimes.
This is what “vibing” looks like in practice - I state a frame, then respond with a Related Frame until she “conversationally hooks” by declaring her own Related Frame (“You shouldn’t say that about your ex!”) or asking a question about my own frame (“When did you two break up?”).
Routines that follow a script or tell a story are not vibing. The essence of vibing is to just declare related concepts until the girl starts to also declare her own. We all have concepts and associations between those concepts embedded in our brain, so the beauty of vibing is that it’s entirely natural to the human experience - no routines or scripts to memorize.
If she doesn’t conversationally hook, or does something like give a “haha”, I can continue to vibe indefinitely by taking a new concept from my frame and declare a new Related Frame: One time my ex was mad and she slapped me but then immediately started making out with me. This concept of declaring sequential Related Frames is fundamental to the answer of how you vibe forever. This is pretty much all I do in nightgame pre-pull.
Granted, you can also keep a conversation going if you suddenly state a Highly Unrelated Frame: By the way, my place is close by. But Highly Unrelated Frames break the conversation into a new thread, and it becomes clear to the girl that you had a conversational “goal” of introducing a specific frame into the interaction.
You can hide a “goal” by keeping the conversation in the same thread by using Related Frames:
My ex was sweet but she was also kind of a spicy b*tch sometimes.
↕ Both contain the concept of “my ex”
I miss my ex’s place it was this luxury penthouse in Midtown.
↕ Both contain the concept of “a place” and “Midtown”
But my place is also nice and it’s much closer to here than Midtown.
This seeds the idea that my place is nearby without breaking the vibe.
There are a lot of other “strategies” you can use involving Vibing / Threads / Concepts / Frames, but I’ll save those for another post. The point is I now see Frames as one of the most fundamental aspects of game.
Frames in Social Interactions / Contradictory Frames
In the human brain, our perceptions of concepts are defined by our frames, and our frames develop after we are repeatedly exposed to two concepts in the same situation. Our frame that “The sky is blue” developed after we repeatedly observed the “sky” in the same situation as the color “blue”. This frame then reinforces our individual perception of what “the color blue” and what the “sky” is.
But, as we’ve all been exposed to different concept pairs and at different frequencies, so we don’t all necessarily share the same frames. Eg, if I were born on Mars and lived my entire life there, I would have the frame of “The sky is black” formed through repeated experiences of associating the concept of “sky” with the color of “black”. So a Martian would have a slightly different perception of a “sky” than an Earthling because they would have internalized a different “Sky ←→ Color” frame:
The fact that two people can internalize different frames based on different lived experiences means that two Related Frames can be Contradictory Frames: “The sky is blue” and “The sky is not blue” are Related Frames (both containing the concept of “sky”), but are also Contradictory Frames because they cannot both be true at the same time.
In a verbal exchange, the fact that different people can have different frames, even Contradictory Frames, and different perceptions has important implications.
In language, any declarative statement creates a frame. But in a verbal exchange specifically, where each person holds internalizes their own frames, any declaration is implicitly caveated by the fact that the frame is personal. Eg:
Linguistic statement: The sky is blue.
Frame: The concept of “sky” and the concept of “the color blue” are associated with each other.
Frame in a social context: I have repeatedly perceived that the concept of “sky” and the concept of “the color blue” are associated with each other.
Frame Control
In a social interaction because two people can hold Contradictory Frames, different people can attempt to fight over which frame is accepted and which is rejected. This concept is “Frame Control”.
Here’s a practical social situation involving Frame Control: My wing, J, ribs me:
J: Dedifferentiate, you’re fat and you get no girls.
His statement declares two frames. In an expanded form:
I have repeatedly perceived that the concept of “Dedifferentiate” and the concept of “the state of being fat” are associated with each other
and also that the concept of “Dedifferentiate” and the concept of “the state of not getting girls” are associated with each other
These frames are bad for my perception because the concepts of “being fat” and “getting no girls” are negatively charged.
I can respond to this frame in one of three ways:
Accept the frame
Argue against the frame
Flip the frame
Accepting a Frame
J: Dedifferentiate, you’re fat and you get no girls.
I accept this frame if the way I respond does not challenge the association:
J, you’re an idiot
Screw you J
Don’t talk to me J
*no response*
On the surface, all of these might look like valid defensive responses. But none of the responses actually defend against the frame. IE, none defend the perception of myself: J’s association between myself and “being fat” and “getting no girls” is not being challenged. They are all Highly Unrelated Frames.
Not responding with a Related Frame is an implicit acceptance of the frame. I have given J power over the perception of myself by not challenging him.
Arguing Against a Frame
J: Dedifferentiate, you’re fat and you get no girls.
Arguing this frame is this: introducing a Contradictory Frame that you hold.
Say, in reality, I am fit and get play. I can argue J’s frame is invalid with a Contradictory Frame:
I’m not fat I weigh 150lbs! And I just got laid last week!
In an expanded form:
I associate the concept of “Dedifferentiate” with the concept of “the state of weighing 150lbs”
And I associate the concept of “Dedifferentiate” with the concept of “the act of getting laid” within the timeframe of “last week”
But the problem with arguing is this: the act of arguing (introducing a Contradictory Frame into the interaction) does not address a key fact of the matter: that J attempted to establish the perception of myself in the first place.
By responding directly to his frame, I’m implicitly acknowledging him as having authority over my perception. No matter if I logically win or lose the argument, the message will be that my perception needed to be defended in the first place.
There is a way to defend my perception without acknowledging J as an authority over my perception. That way is “flipping the frame”.
Flipping the Frame
J: Dedifferentiate, you’re fat and you get no girls.
Flipping this frame looks something like this:
Dedifferentiate: J, the only girls you get are the fat ones
Dedifferentiate: J, you empty your fat wallet for Nobu dates and still don’t see any action
At face-value, these statements look very similar to the “J, you’re an idiot” line: They’re all new frames that associate J with negatively-charged concepts (”getting with fat girls”, “spending a lot of money and getting no action”, “the state of being an idiot”).
But “J, you’re an idiot” isn’t a frame flip because it dodges the concepts introduced in original frame. It’s a Highly Unrelated Frame.
In contrast, the flips are Related Frames:
Dedifferentiate: J, the only girls you get are the fat ones.
Dedifferentiate: J, you empty your fat wallet for Nobu dates and still don’t see any action.
Both of these concepts incorporate the concepts “the state of being fat” and “the state of getting no girls” from the original frame and associate them with J. They are Related Frames but not Contradictory Frames
In essence, the response to a frame can categorized in one of 3 ways:
Accepting the frame: Responding with a Highly Unrelated Frame (or not responding at all)
Argue against the frame: Responding with a Related, Contradictory Frame
Flip the frame: Responding with a Related, Noncontradictory Frame
Flipping vs Arguing
Compared to arguing the frame, flipping seems contrived: The new frame doesn’t actually contradict any of J’s original frames. Unlike arguing, none of the flips introduce any new frames into the interaction that would invalidate the association between myself and being fat / getting no girls.
But in a social situation, the act of arguing effectively says: “You are the perceiver in this interaction, so here is my perception of those concepts”, where as flipping says: “I am the perceiver in this interaction, so here is my perception of those concepts”. In other words, flipping is better than arguing because frame flipping transfers the locus of perception from the other person to yourself, flipping the entire power dynamic of the interaction.
So both arguing and flipping challenge the other person’s perception, but the difference is how that perception is challenged:
Arguing directly challenges their perception by introducing your own contradictory perception. But the very act of attempting to influence their perception positions yourself in the social role of the Perceived and them as the Perceiver
Flipping challenges the notion that they are the Perceiver in the interaction. By challenging the idea that their perspective on the concept holds any social value, you are indirectly challenging their perception.
This is why arguing often feels like losing: even if you “win” the argument by introducing superior frames, your engagement came from a position of social submission, where your opponent was the perceiver and you are the one being perceived.
Frame Flipping in NYC
Early in my cold approach journey about a year ago, one of the first skills D told me to practice was Frame Flipping. Which was so strange at the time, because, as far as I had researched, no one online was even talking about the concept of Frame Flipping outside of the local GameBrotherhood chat. I took this concept for granted at the time because I was still trying to figure out how to even have a vibey conversation in the first place.
Later on I had the opportunity to game with some of the NYC veterans, and observed they all can flip almost any frame effortlessly. That’s when I started to really try to understand Frame Flipping in terms of conversational theory, and came to realize how fundamental it is to game:
In pickup, you must emotionally attract and then constantly lead the interaction towards sex. But you will always face some kind of non-compliance to your leadership except from the biggest yes-girls. In the face of non-compliance, you need to force the objection to surface, and then overcome the objection.
You can argue against the objection, but doing so positions her as the socially dominant position in the interaction, and her attraction to you will decrease due to hypergamy. Flipping an objection is the best way to overcome it, because you position yourself the socially dominant one, maintaining the emotional attraction.
On a fundamental level, that structure is how all the veterans close as much as they do. Because the effect of hypergamy is so amplified in NYC, frame flipping is a necessary skill to close anything above a Yes-Girl here.
Mindsets for Game
I’ll end this post with some practical tips I’ve found for when a girl introduces a negative frame (objection, obstacle, or framing you with a negative concept):
Always flip; never argue: Arguing establishes the girl as the socially dominant party in the interaction, even if you have stronger frames. Instead, focus on flipping the frame to position yourself as the socially dominant one, which increases her attraction (hypergamy). When a girl “tests” you by associating you with a negative concept, she doesn’t want to hear a contradictory frame, she wants to make sure you don’t even acknowledge her as a perceiver, indicating you are in a higher social position than her: a socially dominant person is the perceiver in a social interaction, and the socially submissive person is person being perceived.
Think conceptually, not associatively (don’t use logic): Thinking logically, IE, trying to come up with competing frames, primes your attention on the associations that the girl is making. Logical thinking requires acknowledging the frame’s associations to find other competing associations. This is associative thinking, where you are focusing on the associations in the frame to logically construct a competing frame. Instead, you want to think conceptually: focus on the individual concepts introduced in the frame without regard to how the girl is associating those concepts together. In the “conceptual” mode of thinking, your mind will hold this “concept soup” of a bunch of individual concepts introduced by the frame.
Don’t negate; relate: In an argumentative mindset, your focus is on logically negating the associations in the original frame using competing associations from a different frame. But to flip, you need to relate the concepts from the “conceptual soup” introduced in the original frame to perceptions you hold about yourself, the girl, your relationship with her, the immediate situation, a past situation with her, people in general, or even something completely unrelated. The point is, you are establishing yourself as an authority over the concepts in her frame by asserting your own frame that relates to those concepts. Again, the socially dominant person isn’t trying to negate the perception of a socially submissive person, the socially dominant person is the one who creates the conceptual relations (the frame) for the socially submissive person.
Solidify your self-perception (both positive and negative concepts): If you have a solid sense of self-perception (IE, a good understanding of all the frames you hold that include yourself), it becomes easier to flip frames that attack your character. If you understand assert frames that include you in it, you already know whether those frames are part of your identity or not. That way, you have an immediate understanding of whether those frames are associated with your self-perception or not. And from this understanding,
I have a lot more ideas in mind related to “concepts”, “frames”, and “perceptions”, and how they tie into other game-related things like vibing, emotions, attraction, and behaviors. One day, I’m hoping to come up with a unified thesis of game that ties all of the concepts together. But I need more time to level up my game to verify these new ideas before I’m confident enough to present them here.
GameBrotherhood Plug
In the meantime, myself and others are posting our field reports in the GameBrotherhood chat. So apply below if you’re a local action-taker and want more examples of how guys are flipping frames.
And if you don’t apply, here’s me flipping you off instead: 🖕
