Daygame Verbals

23-June Update:

My understanding has already shifted since writing this post. I’ll eventually rewrite once I’ve progressed more, with better examples of full conversation.

But the facts remain:

1) there is a London model that is the basis for most daygame PUA advice

2) There most successful NY daygamers don’t follow this framework. Colloquially we call their style “Manhattan daygame”. But there’s not actually a formal guide to reference, especially not this.

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I have realized that all forms of conversation are just topics and ways to expand on topics. New topics begin with observations, questions, or responses and are expanded with assumptions, statements, stories, or commands. Topic discussion can either be grounded in reality (recommended by the London Daygame Framework) or not grounded in reality (vibing, or what I would call “Manhattan Conversation”).

Topics

Observations

These are any observations I can make about the interaction, used to start a new conversation thread. Broadly, there are four observable domains:

• The girl’s appearance

• The girl’s demeanor

• The girl’s actions / reactions

• The environment / circumstances around us

The opener should be based on an observation as well. Centering the initial conversation around an observation helps to ground the conversation in the present, making the approach seem “genuine”.

Reciting a generic pickup line doesn’t make the interaction / your interest in the girl seem genuine (unlike most other places where a guy confident enough to deliver a pickup line to a girl on the street is enough to interest her, street approaches are low value in NYC).

I used to have a problem opening where there was nothing noteworthy to observe about the girl, so I didn’t know how to start the conversation. Then I realized the lack of an observation is an observation itself, so there’s never not an observation to open with.

Big Four Questions

These are the questions I ask in every interaction. They give me a broad understanding of the girl’s logistics and who the girl is:

• What are you up to?

• What’s your name?

• Where are you from?

• What do you do? (school major / job)

Her response is used to start a new conversation thread.

Clarifying Questions

If I ask any other questions, it’s to clarify something she said or an observation I made.

Her Responses

Anything the girl says that’s interesting I might use to start a new conversation topic.

Topic Expanders

London (Logic-cel / Realistic) Assumption

Based on the “London Daygame” framework, when I make a realistic assumption based on the current topic.

The classic London Daygame example was to direct open and then go:

• “You look very chill, like you just came back from a yoga class or long meditation session”

NY group calls this kind of thinking “logic-cel” - I attempt to avoid it because even if I generate initial attraction, most Manhattan girls start to lose interest when I’m just doing logic-cel conversation.

The advanced NY gamers recommended a different kind of assumption:

Manhattan (Vibe / Unrealistic) Assumption

Based on the concept of “vibing”, when I make an unrealistic assumption about the current topic.

• “I know you’re about to pull out the pepper spray on me, but I just wanted to say ‘hi’”

• “Before you run off to the Sailor Moon convention with that miniskirt of yours, I just wanted to…”

The advanced Manhattan gamers use this concept to open difficult girls (fast-moving, tainted, archetype-mismatch) and provide emotional stimulation throughout the interaction.

Tease (Manhattan Character Attack)

A Manhattan Assumption that attacks the girl’s character, inviting her to defend herself:

• Not used to talking to people? You must have been an iPad kid growing up.

• You’re alone on such a nice day? You don’t have any friends?

Lighthearted in nature because it’s a form of “vibing” (unrealistic).

Challenge (London Character Attack)

A London Assumption that attacks the girl’s character, inviting her to defend herself:

• I can see you’ve got attitude. Are you always like this, or will you chill when you get to know me more?

Harsher than a tease because it’s a realistic / logical assumption.

London Statement / Story

The London Daygame framework recommends having stories prepared that demonstrate high status / are emotionally engaging. Obviously, true to the “London” theme, these are realistic stories (logic-cucked) and portray a realistic self-identity:

• I live in <high-value area> and work in <high-value job>

The problem with logic-cucked London statements / stories is they can easily be interpreted as self-qualifying.

Manhattan Statement / Story

An unrealistic (Vibe / Unrealistic) or statement based on the current topic.

When talking about yourself, the advanced guys actually recommend a self-deprecating story, which is also the opposite of a London Story (logically demonstrating high-value). In a Manhattan story, your “Manhattan Identity” should be a caricature of yourself. The opposite of a “London Identity”, which portrays your best self, this identity should be flawed/self-depreciating (shows you don’t need to qualify yourself).

• My mom said I got to talk to girls in the street until I find my wife

• Bear with me for a moment, I grew up sheltered in the suburbs and this is my first time talking to a girl who didn’t live on the same block as me

Manhattan Callout

London Daygame philosophy doesn’t mention anything about callouts (do they not have Maybe girls in London? lol). In Manhattan, we need to callout bad behavior from Maybe girls, but only in a humorous way:

• “Listen, you have great tits, but there’s more to life than tits. So you need to actually answer my questions.”

• “Don’t be racist - I might be white, but I’ve got a little bit of spice to me”

Callouts are a Beginner-Advanced+ technique, so I have never used these to any success. I’m only assuming the callout needs to be done in a humorous way as that’s the idea behind the Level 1 frame control technique.

Command

Any kind of command based on an observation.

Can be physical:

• Stop walking

• Move over

• Give me your number

• Let’s go

or behavioral:

• What do you think… (“What’s my vibe? What ”)

• Do you have any questions for me?

• Cool it with that attitude

• You got a lot of thoughts running through your mind - let them out there’s no judgment here

Conversation Strategies

As I have progressed, my conversation strategies have changed over time:

Beginner Beginner Beginner Beginner (October 2023)

I don’t know what to talk about, so I go into sets with the goal to ask the “Big Four Questions” and then ask for her number:

Framework:

1. Direct open

2. If I got her to stop, she says “thanks”

3. I ask a Big Four question

4. I am too nervous, she gives an objection and she leaves

Every set fails due to my own nervousness.

Intermediate Beginner Beginner Beginner (Early November 2023)

I get coaching, and realize the objections aren’t real and I need to handle them.

Framework:

1. Direct open

2. If I got her to stop, she says “thanks”

3. I ask a Big Four question

4. She gives an objection to continuing the interaction

5. I command her to stay and justify with a statement (London or Manhattan)

6. But I am still too nervous, so she leaves anyway

Every set still fails due to my own nervousness.

Advanced Beginner Beginner Beginner (Late November 2023)

I realize that questions / commands are value-subtracting, so I need to add value to the interaction by stating observations (I swing too far and decide to not ask any questions or give commands).

Because I have an idea of what to say, I am finally not (so) nervous in set.

Framework:

1. Direct open

2. She says “thanks”

3. I state an observation about her (London statement)

4. She agrees or disagrees

5. Another London statement

6. Repeat until she starts asking me questions or I ask for her number

I get some numbers, but only from only the biggest yes-girls.

Beginner Beginner Beginner (December 2023 - Early January 2024)

I find out about the “London” system and started adding London Assumptions.

"You have a very relaxed walk, you look like you just came from yoga class or a meditation session” → “No, haha” → “No? So you just came from an intense workout but you’re chill now because it’s over”

I also learn about the “social hook” where she will be willing to answer questions, so I re-introduce questions.

My framework:

1. Direct open

2. She says “thanks”

3. London assumption

4. Repeat London assumption until social hook, then ask Big Four questions and then ask for her number

I am actually now getting numbers that convert to dates from this framework

Manhattan Assumption Opener Period (March - April 2024)

I realize direct opens (London Statements) pedestalize the girl’s appearance and will not attract hotter girls. As I am seeing more what the more advanced guys do, I realize they open with an “Manhattan Assumption”, so I try to do the same.

I spend two months practicing “Manhattan Assumption” opens:

• You a disney villian in that fur coat on your way to steal the princess

• You’re running too fast you’re never going to meet a guy like that

This was way too advanced for my current level - my non-verbals were not congruent with these openers, so they almost always lead to blowouts.

My mistake during this period was trying to emulate advanced players before I got other conversation fundamentals down. It was too much mental effort for me to come up with Manhattan Assumptions, so my non-verbals suffered and my interactions died.

Intermediate Beginner Beginner (May 2024 - Present)

I switch to an indirect opener and set follow-up so I can focus on my non-verbals. I also start teasing/challenging lame answers or responses.

1. “Hey, I like your style”

2. She says “thanks”

3. I do a London or Manhattan Observation based on her outfit

4. I (try to) give a personality cold read

5. I ask the Big Four Questions / and either London/Manhattan/tease the answers

6. Number

This framework is working much better to extend the conversation. I am still having to chase down girls though and ask them to stop for the number.

Advanced Beginner Beginner

I’m transitioning into here now, where I will need to work on several issues:

Current Verbal Issues

Question Plowing (Longer Topic Length) - I need to get better at keeping topics going with topic expanders. I’m letting topics die after only a couple of exchanges, which means I need to question-plow, which is making my interactions too short.

Commands - Need to start commanding her to stop, invest in the conversation

Getting the Number - I need to turn “Give me your number” from a command into a question: London explain why I liked her, why I want the number, and make sure she’s on board:

• “Anyway, you seem .… I got to go now, but if maybe we can grab a coffee or drink some time later this week and get to know each other better if you’re also interested.”

Next Steps

Intermediate Beginner and Beyond

I would not consider myself beginner intermediate until I can:

• Get my current verbal issues solved

• Regularly keep a conversation going for 3-5 minutes using all of the conversation techniques

From the beginner-intermediate stage, the path forward will mostly be improving non-verbals, such as body language, kino, tone, etc...

Future Verbal Improvements

I don’t see the actual verbal framework changing much in the intermediate-beginner stage and beyond.

It’s clear from the advanced guys that the best interactions are an unstructured mix of Manhattan and London conversation: London conversation to build rapport and communicate genuine intent, and Manhattan conversation to socially hook and stimulate emotions. I need to do both.

Advanced guys do Manhattan callouts, also do more teases / challenges / commands, which results in more frame battles. From what I have seen, both Manhattan and London verbals can be used to fight frames. I will need to improve frame battling at beginner-advanced and beyond.

Verbal improvement would mostly be in the form of making better observations (more topics to discuss), and improving Manhattan/London topic expansion techniques:

Manhattan Verbal Improvement

I will need to develop a better vibe that focuses on more “fuckboy” topics:

• Relationships (“My name is …, but for a girl like you, I can tell you’re going to be calling me ‘daddy’ more often anyway”)

• Behavior (“We’ll be texting buddies - send each other emojiis and shit. You know, like: Eggplant. Sweat Drops.”)

• Sex (“You got it wrong - I don’t want to have sex with you. I just want you to wear something nice so I can just look at you… And then I’d come after a minute of staring.”)

• Romantic Actions / Reactions (“I’ll take you on a date to the zoo, but if I don’t like you, you get thrown in the gorilla pit”)

• Appearance (“You have that look where guys see you, and they’re like ‘Damn she’s so wholesome’, but they’re tricked because you’re actually a closet freak.”)

• Mood (“You’re way grumpy today - how many Tinder matches ghosted you this week?”)

I also need to work on my “Manhattan Identity” - reformed drug dealer, lifetime of being keychained by minorities for social media validation, etc. Flawed/self-depreciating.

I also might need to figure out questions / hypotheticals that invite Manhattan conversation. And practice jumping from Manhattan topic to Manhattan topic (from advanced guys, it seems you can kind of just throw out a new Manhattan topic whenever). This is probably more important for nightgame though, where having a 100% Manhattan conversation is acceptable.

London Verbals

To build rapport through London Verbals, I will need to gain knowledge of stereotypes (cultural / racial, geographic / boroughs / neighborhoods, careers / college majors, music).

I also need to iron out how to communicate my “London Identity”. IE, how to communicate my real, high-status traits in a way that isn’t perceived as self-qualifying.

Frame control (Manhattan / London Verbals)

Advanced guys use both Manhattan + London frame control techniques: sometimes, I’ve seen frames battled logically by communicating boundaries (but with emotional intent behind the communication) but other times I’ve seen frames being battled in the vibe realm.

• London Frame Control: “If you’re going to keep giving me attitude, then this isn’t a real connection. I’m not going to be used for your validation so you need to chill out and work with me not against me.”

• Manhattan Frame Control:“Wow, we’re going to be such a toxic couple with that attitude of yours. But that just means you know the sex is going to fire.”

London Frame Control is basically logic-cel with emotion behind the words, whereas Manhattan Frame Control is basically just dismissing the frame by not even acknowledging it as real.

A lot of work still to be done. But the path towards improved verbals is now much clearer for me.